“COLLEGE DECISIONS”
Whenever an adult walks over to me with that tell-tale gleam in his or her eye, I know what’s coming. I’m an eighteen-year-old girl attempting to major in math and theoretical physics, and that fact, combined with my avid interest in writing, is prime material for the College Talk. I firmly believe that graduation from college brings with it a diploma and the unshakable conviction that one must share opinions about college with every single high school senior in the world—academic evangelism, so to speak, and this belief confirms itself with each, “Oh, I heard you started your college visits,” and every die-hard Ivy League alum.
THERE CAN BE ONLY ONE
My visits have drawn to a close, and the two paths before me are Amherst College in Amherst, MA, one of the top liberal arts schools in the United States, packaged nicely with a total price tag of $60,000 for my entire four year experience, and Macaulay Honors College, a special division of the CUNY colleges in New York, bringing with it four completely free years of education, a stipend to study abroad, and the opportunities New York has to offer. A school that consistently appears on those Top Ten Colleges lists, and a school that, unfortunately, few people are aware of, and fewer people respect.
Here lies the dilemma that will hang over me until May: what is worth more? Do I hold out hope for the connections I’ll make rubbing shoulders with the rich and famous and the prestige that a name can give me? That instant recognition when I fill out the “College” section of my resume? Or will the quality of my education at one of these elite schools manifest itself in a beautiful campus and the condition of the alumni club, instead of the environment in the classroom, and cause me to regret my thousands in tuition gone to waste?
DECISIONS INDECISIONS
I can choose my Alma Mater to be a school with a recognizable name and then see my own name on endless bank loans, or I can spend four years in New York City for free, without that name and its intangible wealth, but with $40,000 in my pocket, which would otherwise have gone to my tuition for those four years. I can easily compare the advantages of New York City with those of other locations, and I can spell out the details of the school environment I crave, but I have not yet found a way of putting prestige and free education into like terms.
What will I miss out on if I do go to Macaulay, a rather unusual school without a main campus in the heart of New York City and have to explain its qualities to employers and acquaintances? On the other hand, my supposed betterment will come to nothing if I spend the next thirty years in an unfortunate job, struggling to pay off the loans for the school that I thought would effortlessly set my life on a certain path. Every adult I speak with loves his or her former college, regardless of its status of an elite school or not, and presses me to consider that particular college for myself. This gives me hope that prestige should not win out over price in my mind, but the nagging doubt that I need a fancy name to succeed in life will not leave my restless mind.
I know that every college will involve some amount of work on my part—my struggle to fill myself with every opportunity my school has to offer—and I want my passion for learning to be shared by the students around me. Would a prestigious school such as Amherst come with its own crowd of the privileged elite, taking some of the value of their education for granted? On the other hand, would Macaulay, a college designed to pair acceptance letters with full tuition scholarships draw a similar group of students, also taking their education for granted, but for a different reason? These are questions that I will ask myself until the start of the next school year, and probably for the next few years of my life.
NOTHING IS GUARANTEED
I don’t know whether the price I pay for my education at an elite school will necessarily guarantee me a well-paying, rewarding job after I graduate—and with those college loans, I’d need it—but I do know that I’m quite nervous about not being seriously considered for careers post-college if my school does not have a recognizable name that brings with it good reputations for alumni. With these concerns on my mind, I will spend the summer weighing the idea of loans to repay against a free college education, an instantly recognizable school versus a slightly more obscure college, and a central campus against a rather scattered group of buildings in Manhattan. But most of all, I will have to decide if I believe that any school, even Amherst, is worth spending thousands of dollars on tuition when I have a respectable second option, McCaulay, for free.
Readers, please share what advice you would give to Katharine? Please that everybody’s financial situation is different.
As a reminder, the CarInsuranceCompanies.com Yakezie Writing Contest is open for submissions starting April 18th until April 22nd midnight. Please highlight to anybody interested and start working on those essays!
There are a few considerations and several questions that you need to answer when making your decision and figure out the best course for you. What is your planned career with your degree? Becoming a teacher would make it difficult to repay loans. Is this degree a stepping stone to further education which might then be the more prestigious degree and worth the expense like going to law school or getting an MBA or PhD. Will the connections at the prestigious school be worthy of the cost? Can you partner with the next Zuckerberg or do you feel the odds of that are slim? In my profession, nobody cares or even knows where others went to school. What matters is daily performance. I would dare say that most of the world operates that way. Ultimately, the decision is up to you. Like you say, there are no guarantees. Not regarding profession or that you will be healthy enough to even finish. Good luck with your decision.
I’d imagine that grad school would be quite possibly my next step after college, so I think it might be wise to save up the money now and go with my free option, then shell it out later. I suppose that everything boils down to quantifying the non-monetary perks of Amherst…which will take me a while.
My sister went to UMass (also in Amherst, but Oh-so-different from Amherst college.) But she had a good (not perfect) GPA, did well on the LSAT, and had a very enriching study abroad experience. She had no problem getting into every law school she applied to (she went to Harvard.)
Getting into grad school from Amherst College may be easier, but it’s more than just the college – the study abroad was really important in my sister’s case, for example.
Wow, that’s a really tough decision! A top-ranked school does mean a lot in today’s business world, but a load of debt leaves it’s mark too.
If you attended the expensive school, you would go $40,000 in debt (I believe this is how you explained yourself in the posting). However, don’t think of this as only $40,000, especially if they are government loans. Over the course of repayment, these will most likely become $60,000 (after interest payments). So, it’s even a bigger expense than you thought.
I would say, attend the Honors school that will give you a free ride. You can always take your master course at the high-end school later in life. Staying out of debt is way too important when you’re young. You’ll be glad you made the decision once you’re done and see all your friends struggling to pay their loans.
I agree with LifeAndMyFinances. Sometimes you can even land a job that will pay for further education. In my case, I earned a free ride at a community college on a journalism scholarship. Then I went to a local college for my Bachelor’s and lived at my parent’s house. When the local paper hired me as a reporter, the company paid for my Master’s Degree. I have so many friends who went to prestigious schools who are still paying off their student loans and I can honestly tell you that some of them are not even working in their desired professions. I’m so glad that I decided to save some money.
Yep, I kind of went the same route by attending a community college first. I still ended up with debt though….but not as much as most of my friends! If you can come out of college with no debt, that would be huge!!
I’m just a bit nervous that not having a recognizable college on my resume will rule out potential opportunities for me after college, when I’m (probably) working to pay off some debt before going to grad school. But I definitely agree that debt is not an ideal financial situation to be in; my mom took…about thirty years to pay off her college loans. I’m meeting with some of Amherst’s financial advisors over the weekend, and they’re giving me a revised offer, so there’s still hope that I could get away with borrowing $5,000 each year, which is much more reasonable to me.
Wow, if you only have to borrow $5,000 each year at Amherst, that would be HUGE and a definitely nod towards going to Amherst!
I completely agree–if you only have to borrow $5,000 per year (which you could even make up with a part-time job and summer jobs), then Amherst is the way to go in my mind.
Amherst is definitely worth $5,000 in debt per year!
I’d have to agree that this is a very difficult decision. Where I live, there’s not really many elite universities or many established schools – I went to a solid state school, and didnt really work hard at getting scholarships of any kind (Not recommended).
I think that either program will suit your needs just fine, but I can say from the other end of it that paying down student loans is no fun (and I Graduated with about 20k) and if I had to do it over again, I would have tried much harder for the free money – taking out loans was just the easiest way.
Have you considered going to the school in new york for 2 years, then transferring? You’ll still get a degree from amherst, but will not need to incur the full expense. That said, you may find it difficult to leave your friends/teachers/etc at the first school if you really enjoy them.
I think optionsdude has a great point as well – whats the overarching aim for this degree? Are you interested in studying to be a teacher, a computer programmer or an underwater welder (no degree required for the latter)? What will the starting salary be like for that profession when you graduate, and where are you most likely to find a job? Some positions exist in every county/town in the country (like teaching) but it’s often difficult to find a stockbroker job in a city not called new york or chicago.
Good luck, and congrats on working hard up to this point to put yourself in this position – you may have a difficult decision to make, but at least you’re left with options.
Going to Macaulay for two years and transferring is an option, but I won’t have a guaranteed transfer anywhere, and I’d need to go through the whole application process again. I’m not the biggest fan of that. I’ll hear back from two other schools over the summer (oh, waitlists) and there’s always a chance that they’ll give me a better offer. The grand plan, I suppose, would probably be working after college for a bit, and possibly going back to school after some career adventures in the real world. So, from that perspective, my college doesn’t matter, from what I’ve heard. I’m just not entirely sold on grad school.
Just to let you know my background, I went to Washington University in St. Louis, a top 15 USNews school, so I have perspective from going to a great school.
With that being said, Wash U is not Harvard or Stanford, so while I did have many great job opportunities available to me at graduation, it really wasn’t very different from the opportunities I’ve seen when I go recruit at big state schools in Missouri and Texas (Mizzou, Texas A&M, Texas).
Here’s the other thing I know about recruiting; we care a lot more about your internships than we do about your university. I think being in NYC is going to give you opportunities for the best internships.
If you choice was CUNY or Harvard, I might take Harvard. Unfortunately, I’m sure Amherst is a great college, but it doesn’t have near the name recognition that you want out of a $60,000 college. Go with CUNY.
That makes me feel a lot better about giving up some of the name recognition; New York would certainly give me more opportunities for extracurricular enrichment. As well as better food and all that. I will say that my mom is pushing for Amherst, as she’d like me to get out of the city and see something new, but it is, ultimately, my choice. I’ll get my final offer for financial aid over the weekend, and then I’ll need to figure out how much debt I’m comfortable with. I think that I could handle something under twenty thousand or so for the whole four years, but more than that will probably be a deal breaker.
My knows best. :)
Decisions…decisions.
First, don’t discount a less than prestigious school based only on the fact that it is less prestigious. In fact, you might just find that going to a less than prestigious school will make you look like a rockstar. You’ll be one of many at a top-notch school, or you can be the standout student at a less than top-notch school. Either way, be sure to get to know your professors as well as you possibly can, because from every college, top and bottom, professors have serious clout in their specific fields. No matter where you graduate, it helps having a few professors write you reference letters/promoting you for you! Don’t think for a moment that the few hours you invest to get to know several professors isn’t worth your time–it most definitely is.
I don’t think you’ll ever have to worry about working low pay jobs with two degrees in math and theoretical physics. With each passing day, it seems that the degree you get is only a measure of how smart you are. Should you graduate with dual degrees in math and theoretical physics, you’re smart enough to do anything, and I think employers will feel the same.
Jeff’s comment above sounds like an excellent route. Why not get two years under your belt for free, then foot the $20,000 bill to go elsewhere to get a degree from a brand name school? Definitely spend some time with advisors from both schools to ensure that this is possible–you don’t want to run into any problems in the future ;)
I hate to say this, but the thing is…the first two years of school won’t be anything like you imagined. They’re boring, unexciting, and generally have NOTHING to do with your major, but they’re still critical for setting the pace for the rest of your college career. I can say with 100% certainty that if you can pass the first two years of school, the rest is a piece of cake. Well, maybe not a piece of cake–you will have to work harder–but you’ll be studying something that you truly enjoy, and it makes all the difference! Boy, did I sure have a tough time understanding that I wouldn’t be taking classes related to my major in my first semester. I was ready to dig in, but it wasn’t my pace that mattered, it’s the school’s pace that matters.
Good luck in the future, and congrats on winning a Yakezie scholarship! You’ll be just fine no matter which route you choose as long as you choose it for you.
One of the tough things is that both Amherst and Macaulay are small, Amherst more so, but Macaulay is still quite tight-knit, and from what I’ve heard, I’ll have the ability to form great relationships with my professors at both places. One plus for Amherst is that classes have under 15 students, as opposed to Macaulay, where there’s more seminar-type courses, so I feel like Amherst would give me the edge in getting to know people with connections who could set me up for teaching internships and things in my field of study. On the other hand, Macaulay is in New York City, so I’d have more of an opportunity for financial career forays, and work experience of that type. The two years and then transferring plan would also work, but I wouldn’t necessarily get a guaranteed transfer, and I’m not sure if I want to go through the application process again. We shall see. I’m at Amherst this weekend, seeing classes etc, so that will give me a better idea of the school, as I’ve previously seen more of Macaulay. It’ll be interesting to compare math and physics classes. As for the first two years not having much to do with my major, I’ve been doing quite well in my AP classes, which will, if I do well on the tests next month, I’d be eligible to be placed in higher-level courses when I start next year. I’d have at least a bit of a head-start on some of the more interesting physics and math classes, so I’m not sure that my first year would be entirely unrelated. We shall see…
Regarding financial forays, if you decide to apply to financial institutions, the elite institutions only have a targeted list of schools. Amherst is definitely one of them, and is recognized by everyone from McKinsey, Bain, BCG, Private Equity shops, investment banks, law firms etc. Check the recruiting list from each school.
It depends… if someone wants to darn good computer programmer and thats what he sees himself doing, I don’t think a degree is even required – you may do equally well with a degree from a small college.
But if you wish to get into a profession which equates from where you graduated with your pay (atleast initially), then this becomes a consideration.
I’m just not sure that I’d set myself so far ahead of the pack right after college. I may be good at math and physics, but I’ll spend the next four years with people who are equally, and sometimes more so, talented. So I don’t think that I can bank on being oh so amazing right after I graduate. Otherwise, I’d go to Macaulay and not even consider the bonus a “better” school could give me.
What was your gut feel when you visited both schools? Does one school match up with your learning style better than the other?
Assuming you like both schools equally, I would probably go for the free ride. As someone else mentioned, you can always transfer if you need to.
My husband and I graduated 20 years ago, so I am not sure that the same rules apply. However, my husband has done incredibly well and his degree is from Michigan State. A good school, but definitely not an elite school. Your internships, traveling abroad, etc will make a big difference. (That is true no matter what school you go to.)
The only benefit I would see to the more ‘prestigious’ school is if there job placement services is the absolute best and the other school has a 20 percent hire rate for graduates.
Think about what you want and how you learn, and go from there. Starting out with huge debt can be really tough.
Amherst is gorgeous, and I’m seeing classes on Monday, which I can compare to what I know about Macaulay. In terms of the college feel of my school, Amherst feels exactly the way I want my school to, and Macaulay, what with the lack of a central campus, etc, is not going to seem like real college at all. I haven’t quite figured out how much that matters to me, but if it comes down to wanting the “college experience,” it’ll be Amherst, for sure.
Considering that this is, primarily, a personal finance site, you’re likely to get a bunch of responses that say to go for the free ride. And, frankly, that would be my suggestion as well. But, it’s a serious decision that will have lasting effects on your life. Like you said, you’ll either have a diploma with a prestigious name on it, or be student loan debt free. I think another telling thing is this; in your post, you say the following:
“Every adult I speak with loves his or her former college, regardless of its status of an elite school or not, and presses me to consider that particular college for myself. ”
Stop and think about that. Every. You see, college is much more about the experience than it is about the schooling. Don’t get me wrong, the schooling is an important part, but the friends that you’ll meet and the experiences that you have will go a long way toward making you the woman that you will be when you leave. There are statistics that a majority of people meet their future husband (or wife) at college. Many of their lifelong friends are met at college.
Yes, the prestige is a good thing. But, put some serious thought into which of the two will give you the opportunity to have the better experience.
Just based on what you’ve written, it sounds like the free school is the one you want to go to. Free is good. But, the added opportunity to experience New York without having to worry about the student loans that you’re accumulating adds to that as well. And, getting the opportunity to go overseas for a semester or so is another incredible experience. It exists at most schools, but again, not having the added accumulation of debt is a good mark.
I can’t tell you what to do, but my advice would be to take a very close look at the two, weigh the education and the experience about 50/50 and take the one that comes out on top. If everyone loves their alma mater, is there really a wrong choice?
Just to add a bit to my comment; I went to a small private college in the midwest. (http://www.jc.edu) and I love it too. I have student loan debt, and there are times that I wish I had picked a school that would have cost me less, but the people that I met (including my wife; I’m one of those statistics) and the experiences that I had were very valuable.
As I said to Everyday Tips, I think that Amherst would give me the college experience, while Macaulay, since it’s in the city I’ve lived in for my entire life, wouldn’t feel like an actual change at all. I’m not sure if that’s a bad thing, because I didn’t put much thought into what I wanted my school to feel like. I’m also quite willing to go into a small amount of debt if I can get good friends and connections out of it, and while I’ll make good friends anywhere, Amherst’s alumni network seems to be incredibly strong, so that will factor into my decision.
Although Amherst is quite prestigious, right below the IVY’s, it isn’t an IVY. Your major in math and physics put you in a great position to get an awesome job or go to grad school. I liked the idea of doing your first 2 years FREE! Then decide later. You’lll have more education and experience and you can consult with faculty in your field. My neice went to Kalamazoo on a free ride one year and is now footing the bill at Cornell. She got a position as an RA and Cornell will pay her room and board next year. Good luck!
Another vote for two years and then transferring. It’d be quite possible. My mom went to a state school in Minnesota, then came here to Columbia for math and economics, so she’s given me her view of the experience: hard to leave friends, nice to go to a recognizable school, and she ended up staying in New York City, getting married, having four kids, etc. So it’s still an option, I’m just liking the idea of knowing where I’ll be and not having to worry about doing the whole thing again two years from now. That’s the stressed senior talking.
I say free ride.
If 90% of the people say free ride and you go private/debt anyway, then don’t feel remorseful in the future. That means you work your butt off, and get the most for your money.
Meet more people, study harder, network and make sure 20 years from now you aren’t saying “Why did I borrow all that money???”
Oh, I won’t regret my decision, unless I suddenly become an irresponsible person and don’t make my minimum monthly payments on the student loans, if I go with Amherst. ($50 a month, as I discovered.) I also think that having to pay for some of my education may make me work harder and take it more seriously, as I am actually putting some of my own money into the college experience.
Prestigious schools are completely overrated! I’m speaking from my experience, but i cannot tell you how many people I know went to rich schools and ended up not finding a job. In my opinion, your school doesn’t matter. However, your major does.
This is an obvious decision to me. Go with the full ride. Graduate with zero debt, get a job and start your career. People make this too complicated. Good luck with your decision.
Feel free to hit me up with questions. I was in th same boat 4 years ago :0
I’ll get Amherst’s final financial aid offer over the weekend, and I’m pretty sure that I wouldn’t want to take more than $5,000 a year in loans. Anything more than that, I can’t really justify, no matter how much I like the school. I’ve heard awful stories about the overeducated graduates who can’t find jobs, and then spend decades with their six-figure debt, and I have no intention of ending up like that.
I would definitely advise the free ride. I went to a smaller school in Georgia but still managed to land a great job out of school. Pretty much the only thing you will need when you graduate is a good work ethic and the right connections. It sounds like you already know what you want to do so it would be to your advantage to start working an internship for experience as early as sophomore year. This will give you an edge over other students without that experience and the connections you make in the industry will get you the rest of the way.
If you go to the school that is more well known, yes you will have that “brand” on your resume but you really just have to ask yourself, as with any purchase, is it worth it? From my experience, even in a recession, you can get just as far with a lesser known school with the right experience and connections.
count my vote in for a free ride, especially these days. if the cost of attending a top school (in student loans, not raw cost) will not exceed your first year’s expected salary, then it might be of consideration?
Hi Katharine,
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I’ve thought long and hard about this dilemma you face and wanted to share some feedback:
* No matter which choice you make, I don’t think there is a wrong one. Both are great options to have and many people would kill for this opportunity you have.
* It’s important to understand what are the 2 or 3 most likely things you want to do and compare what each school has to offer, and the alumni network has in place. No school is strong in everything.
* I rank Amherst College right up there with all the Ivy League schools. It is impossible to get in and holds tremendous weight among many of the most successful educators and business people a like. From the top law firms, to investment firms, to the highest reaches of government, Amherst is right up there. There are families out there who would be willing to pay $100,000 a year for their child to go to Amherst if not more.
* Amherst at $60,000 is a bargain for all 4 years. You are saying it’s $60,000 for four years right? B/c tuition alone costs $45,000/year, so I’m assuming you are getting some scholarship? Pls correct if I’m wrong.
* Many of the best companies in the world only recruit from a select few schools. In other words, the elite companies hire only from the elite schools. You have to carefully look at the career center and see which are the companies who regularly come by to recruit.
* If you are not interested in making a lot of money, and are focused on honorable occupations like teaching, by all means go to McCaulay.
*$60,000 sounds like a lot for a high schooler with no steady income, but once you graduate, even not from Amherst and get a normal $50,000 a year paying job, $60,000 won’t sound as much anymore. And, you might even get a very high paying job out of Amherst, again depending on your major and what you want to do. All my friends who were able to join top investment and strategy consulting firms made around $90-$110,000 a year their first year out of school.
* The circle of friends and alumnis you will mingle with will be much more powerful if you go to Amherst. It’s really the connections that matter most, and connections are half the battle in getting what you want. It’s true, we all learn pretty much the same stuff in college, but it’s the connection you make which become PRICELESS. People help people who have more similarities to themselves. You wonder why seemingly smart people can’t get out of the cycle of “stuckness”, and it is due to their connections.
In conclusion, I say go for Amherst. You have a lifetime to make money, but you only have one shot to go to one of the best schools in America. The friends and people you meet there will blow away any $60,000 or $40,000 in student loans you make. And if you go to McCaulay, great! There are no bad choices here. Like others have said, grad school is a great option as well in the future!
Best, Sam
From what I’ve heard about the strong alumni network, I’d basically have lifetime career placement assistance, as well as people that absolutely love their school and helping other graduates. So, if my meeting with the financial aid people this weekend goes well, I’d be willing to go into a smallish amount of debt to get that career placement help, because it’d make hunting down jobs a whole lot easier. At the moment, I’d need to pay about eighteen thousand a year, and they’re giving me the other 37k a year as a scholarship. I’ll get my final offer quite soon, so I’ll keep you updated on that. I don’t think that I’d regret having to pay off student loans after I graduate; the minimum payment is $50 a month, which I’m sure I could always beat, but I would regret turning down my “better” school if I end up stuck in New York City after the next four year with nothing much to do at all. I do think that the connections I’ll make will be worth quite a bit, and from what I know about Amherst graduates, the school is always around to help them if they get stuck at any point in life. That’s a bit plus.
I understand if you have reservations about transferring. I would definitely not have been able to do that, as I decided to concentrate pretty heavily on the social aspect of college and enjoyed a variety of experiences (including lots of parties, heh). I looked at my undergrad education as my last stop, so there was not a whole lot incentive to keep my grades up, especially since most employers did not ask for a GPA (from my recollection, I believe only 1 potential employer asked for it, and that was Andersen Consulting, now known as Accenture. But I do regret not paying more attention to academics, as opportunities like that are much more difficult to come by after you graduate and “real life” becomes very hectic.
If transferring schools does not sound too appealing, I would lean toward Amherst. The alumni network, job placement services, name recognition…it’s hard to put a price tag on them. If you’ve grown up in NYC your whole life, a change of pace is also nice. And I believe Financial Samurai is correct – there are many investment banks and consulting firms (or at least certain divisions of those companies) that recruit only at the top schools. If you are planning to go into one of these fields, that’s another good reason to consider Amherst. A few years down the line, the school name won’t matter as much, but it will help with that first job placement. My advice would be to try to get summer internship positions in an industry/company that you are interested in – employers look favorably upon that experience when actual hiring time comes after graduation.
As far as a liberal arts education goes, MIT does offer many classes, but obviously not as much as a great liberal arts school like Amherst. However, as an MIT student, you are eligible to enroll in classes at Harvard, which is literally down the street (5 minutes by bus, 20 minute walk), which I have done. If Harvard is not your cup of tea, you also have your pick of classes at Wellesley which is a few towns away. I ended up choosing MIT over Columbia because I wanted to get out of NY, the opposite of your mom! :) If my daughter was in the same position as you, with the two options, I would also advise her to choose Amherst, like you mom did.
The liberal arts debate is a great one. Unless one wants to specifically be an engineer or some very narrow field, I would say go Liberal Arts. It’s really about balance and learning as much about the world as possible. I might have to write a post about this! Or, perhaps you’d like to write a guest post here on the subject! Your comments and thoughts are fantastic! I was also intrigued by how you ended your previous comment with the worth of your MIT given you are a mom now.
What if a woman always wanted to be a mom by say… 27 and stay at home. Would it still be worth going to an expensive and prestigious school? Hmmm.
Ooops – sorry to hijack your comments thread, I’d meant to continue the reply on my own comment thread. Oh well. :) The liberal arts/technical school debate would be a nice one…a lot of differing opinions! Throw into that mix something like a West Point/Air Force Academy (which I would LOVE if one of my offspring could get in…first rate education, physical fitness, discipline, connections…all for free!). And throw in the stay at home parent aspect into the mix. Please do contact me…I’m a bit of a newbie in the blogging world and a little shy about writing (I didn’t have a liberal arts education after all…no writing class after high school – heheh). :)
Wow! Tough one for sure.
In my opinion, I would say choose the school you’re most excited about. While $40,000 is nothing to scoff at, it’s not prohibitively expensive.
If you are equally excited about both, I would say choose Macaulay college. I think prestige is overrated, especially in certain fields of study. Plus, if you choose to attend graduate school, you can always go to a more prestigious school then (and potentially with more financial aid).
Good luck with your decision! I know it isn’t easy.
I would opt for the lesser known college. There is zero guarantee that the better school will lead to a higher paying job. But there is a 100% guarantee that it will lead to debt. For me it’s a no brainer.
I know $60,000 seems like a lot, but for a 4 year degree that is pretty reasonable. I’m not too familiar with Amherst and the reputation of the school, but I think you need to factor in a few key things.
1) Where do you want to work? If you are planning to work in Boston, it wouldn’t make a lot of sense to go to a school in NYC that no recruiters in Boston are familiar with. However, if you are looking to work in NYC, then Macaulay probably has a good local reputation.
2) How do each of these schools place in the fields you are interested in? I know you are in high school and don’t have everything completely figured out at this point, but I am sure that you have a good idea. Talk to the schools and see how the place students in industries of your interest.
Regardless of which school you choose, make the best of it. College is a great experience and you should work hard, network, make friends, and have fun!
As for where I’ll want to work, I’d imagine that I’ll end up in a large city somewhere, since I grew up in NYC, I’m used to it, all my friends and family are here, etc. My reservation about staying in the city for another four years is that, since I may very well come back to work here, I’ll have been in NYC my whole life, and never gotten to experience much else. Trapped in the “capital of the world,” so to speak. Both schools seem to turn out some exceptionally bright students each year, but as I discovered, Amherst’s alumni network and career placement services are a definite plus.
Hey Katharine,
This is just my opinion, but I say go with NYC. If you are going to major in Math and Theoretical physic, then I would say the school doesn’t really matter that much. I agree with Financial Samurai about the connection you’ll make. I think those connections are extremely important if you go into finance and business. I think if you’re going into science, it doesn’t matter as much. You can go to graduate school after you got the BS. Good luck!!! Either choice will be great!
Being a recent colleage/university grad myself, I would definitely pick New York. The opportunity to go to New York and live there FREE for 4 years is definitely a once in a lifetime opportunity. Think about all the cool people you’ll meet, the new friends you’ll make, and the culture of NYC that you can be proud claim your own in a few years. The idea of being in debt, $60,000 in debt is difficult to justify- education is meant to help you earn money in the long run. That’s coming from me in Canada where we were all complaining about $2500 tuition per year!
After reading about your dilemma, I contacted a colleague who may add a perspective to your decision. He is a physics teacher at my school, however he left industry after 25 years as a Vice President of an oil company. He has an undergraduate degree from Williams College and a Masters in Physics from Brown University. He feels in this economy, you should take the free ride! He feels the possible differential you may receive from going to a better school won’t be realized. It is better that you graduate from a lesser known school with a high GPA. versus $60K in debt. BTW, CUNY is a good school too. It has an excellent reputation in the New York area. Don’t underestimate the benefits of being in New York City. You will have access to internships, and other opportunities which will benefit you when you graduate and look for a job. Remember, it is what you do with your education that counts more than where you went to school. I hope this helps.
I just wanted to stop and thank you, krantcents. Many of us added our experience and advice to this post, but you went several steps further and actually contacted someone in her field. That’s incredible. That’s what this group is all about, and, I just wanted to stop and thank you for your contributions.
I appreciate that, however it was just a perfect fit. John (colleague) is a good fiend and I thought it may be more meaningful to her. He is the Magnet coordinator at school and advises bright students who face this kind of dilemma all the time. That is aside from his experience and college background being so similar.
Wow, thanks for going above and beyond. It’s great to hear from people who’ve had very similar experiences, but made it to the other side. What I’ve heard from everyone is that I shouldn’t devote all of my resources to college if I plan on going to grad school after college, and what your friend says seems to back that up. And the internships here are definitely a plus.
I live in NY so I know this school and I had a similar dilemma as yourself. What I did was attend the school that gave me the scholarship for a year to see if I liked it, and delayed entry into the big school. I then left the “free” school after a year to the larger, more recognizable school. I saved a year’s worth of money.
But I found that unless I was going into a job at Wall Street or a top 50 school, no one cared when I had attended school. I have a load of debt that I am repaying 10 years later and I wish that I had made different decisions.
That said, don’t be discouraged from going to Amherst if that is where you want to go. I would evaluate both schools on the merit of not just name recognition, but on which school would provide me a better, quality education within my field of study. I would sit in on classes if possible and get to know the schools more in depth. Make a decision after you have immersed yourself into the experience and talked to other students.
Good luck!
My perspective on this is from my own experience. I have a AAS, BS and MBA all from state schools in NY. I knew that I did not need a big prestigious school because of my field. I started my career away from home, came back and worked by home then left the States and work abroad. No one cared about school when I got a few years under my belt. They just cared my degrees where from an accredited school.
I hire a lot of people and I really don’t care where they went to school. I look at how active they were in school, how they put themselves through school and what they learned in school.
By going to state school, I was able to cash flow my way through them and left school with no debt. I later had my employer pay for my MBA. Don’t strap yourself with debt. Start your life off right and a focus on learning your trade to the fullest when you start working.
Tough decisions! Good luck.
Had a buddy that went to Harvard undergrad, then Tulane Law School, and was doing temp legal work for the government. So much for big name schools.
On the other hand, I had a buddy that went to a no-name liberal arts school, and got in to USC (a/k/a, West Coast Mafia), both academically prestigious and well-connected. He was offered summer internships that paid over $2k/week, and could get hired at any Big Law firm in the country.
My take — undergrad degrees are a dime a dozen. Go where you’ll be happy. Academic pedigree rarely matters, but when it does, it usually only matters what grad school you go to. Don’t waste your money at Amherst because of the “reputation” of the school.
Isn’t going from Harvard to Tulane backwards though? Going to Law School is a completely different, sometimes soul sucking discussion. 60%+ of law students don’t become lawyers!
Sam, that’s my point. Spent all that money on Harvard and didn’t mean a thing.
And the soul-sucking usually doesn’t begin until AFTER law school! ;o)
I like the idea of taking the free ride for the first year or two, then considering a transfer. Of course, if you love Macaulay, you should stay. If you are considering the transfer option, just remember that you will need to keep your GPA up and put time into your studies, as you will be considered a new applicant when you re-apply. It’s very difficult for many freshmen to stay on course with academics in such a new and exciting environment, where most are on their own for the first time in their lives. Especially in NYC. College is different from high school…professors will not care if you miss class or homework. If you are definitely prepared for the challenge, then go for the free ride + transfer.
Also, if you are considering math and theoretical physics for your majors, why not consider a school like MIT for transfer, not a liberal arts college? From my experience, MIT (my alma mater) gave me the most financial aid of any school I applied to, which made my decision easy. I could have attended Rutgers on a free ride, but having a college experience in Boston was important to me. Even with aid, I ended up with $20k+ in loans upon graduation which took me a few years to pay off. Do I regret the decision? Not one bit, I would do it all over again.
I also agree with most here that a name-brand college does not necessarily get you hired, but I will say that it does not hurt. I tend to look less at the college, but the actual degree itself. I have a bias toward engineers because most come with built-in analytical and problem-solving skills. I also like seeing a military background because ex-military tend to be very disciplined (in my work experience with co-workers). But I’m not going to ignore a Harvard degree – it does carry some weight, although it is definitely not the most important part of a resume…except perhaps when you apply for your first job.
Many will tell you, “I know so-and-so went to Yale and he can’t get hired.” Yes, I know few people with “pedigrees” that are unemployed. But I can also think of quite a few people without an Ivy League education that are unemployed as well. It’s not the degree that makes them unemployable, it is the individual and his/her circumstance, so don’t fall into that trap. Ultimately, it is how you take advantage of your surroundings that’s important…not where you go that’s important.
Consider what you’d like to do in the future, and don’t forget about the possibility of raising a family of your own. At the age of 18, family was the furthest thing from my mind…but with a family of my own now? My college degree is worth $0 at my current job, as I am a stay-at-home mom for the time being!
Good luck and keep us posted with your decision!
My reservation about staying at Macaulay and then transferring is having to keep up my grades when I’m in intensive, challenging classes, and then going through the whole application process again. As for the liberal arts school: after visiting tons of places, I realized that I want a tiny school, and since I have so many interests (yes, I do love math and physics, but I want to continue writing and start taking Ancient Greek, as I’ve taken Latin for six years, and I want to round out my Classics education) I feel like a liberal arts school will suit me best, because an open curriculum will give me the option to stick in a Greek class here and there, and probably some writing workshops. That’s the kind of thing that I wouldn’t want to give up for a school that’s more well-known for math and science. My mom went to Columbia over MIT and majored in math and economics, so I’ve gotten to hear her side of the debate. It’s also good to hear that you don’t regret your loans; I feel like I’d take my education more seriously if I actually put my own money into it.
Hi Katharine,
Tough decision, and there are a lot of good comments here. From a financial coach’s perspective, what I can tell you after helping with their finances over the last few years is this: With $60k in debt, you’ll need to make at least $60k per year to be able to live comfortably and pay your debts down quickly.
As Sam pointed out, there’s a good chance you’ll get the high income job with an Amherst degree (and I agree that $60k sounds like a bargain for that school, even though I’ve never heard of either school). But $60k is $60k. That’s a lot of debt to me, and I don’t like debt at all. Plus, there’s no guarantee that you’ll graduate (life has its way of throwing curveballs at you) or that you’ll get that job with a great income. There is, however, a guarantee that you’ll be able to pay off your (lack of) loans at Macaulay.
When I still worked in manufacturing I was a hiring manager who interviewed dozens and dozens of candidates for supervisory positions. As an interviewer, I really didn’t care for the most part where their degree was from or what it was in. My concern was that they showed the discipline to finish college with a decent GPA. I found the same to be true when I interviewed for jobs with different companies. All they cared about was that I had a degree in the right field. Once they checked the box, it was my personality and skills (not my college) that got me hired.
My background (so you can understand where I’m coming from): I graduated from a small but good engineering school with no debt. I was so far ahead of my peers who had $40-60k in debt when they graduated. I later graduated from another small school with a masters degree, again without debt. I’m currently working on an MBA at a different small private school. I will graduate without debt. What does that mean? It means that for my lifestyle, my income range, and my career path, I choose small schools with no debt. It’s more conservative but it works for me.
Good luck!
I would definitely go with the cheaper school that you have a full ride to. Being debt free out of undergrad is very beneficial.
First of all, congrats! You have two fabulous options and that’s great news. I’d suggest to try out CUNY. New York is an amazing place to live and explore when you’re young. It has an energy unlike any other big city I’ve been to. The food, the shows, it’s so easy to get around with their public transportation system, the countless stellar museums, any store you can think of, so many companies have HQ’s there, and you’ll never get bored. Granted you’ll still want to watch your spending even with a full scholarship because it is an expensive city and with the endless fun things to do in NYC it’s easy to burn through cash if you’re not mindful about it.
Try to talk to some of the alums if you can from both schools and ask how their experiences were, what career paths they pursued, and what they would do differently if they could go back and do it over again. You can always transfer to a different school if CUNY doesn’t seem to have the quality and challenges that you want after the first year too. Best of luck!
No one cares WHERE I went to university at this point. No one asks and no one reviews page 3 of my resume, i’m sure.
What matters is what i’ve done, the fact I did go to university (and then college), and my experience and successes. Did I perform? Will people with power vouch for me?
Here in Canada I could have gone to “prestigious” Queen’s U but decided to go to Trent U (good undergrad) but it is never something that matters after 5-10 yrs in the workplace.
What if you went to McGill? College matters greatly imo landing that first or second job. Once you land at a higher scale, you tend to stay at that higher scale forever.
I think we need more perspective from people who went to a Top 5-10 school, or one of the top liberal arts schools like Amherst, Vassar, etc.
Someone ping somebody from there to get their perspective!
thx
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That’s my main problem. I don’t know what my school’s name is worth. It’s also quite true that math is math, no matter how large the bill for the blackboards in your classroom. I suppose that Amherst’s tiny class sizes might sway me in that direction, because it’ll be easier to grasp hard material when there are fourteen other people sitting with me, but I’m also trying to get to know professors from both schools who could potentially teach me next year. We’ll see which teachers win out.
There is no right answer here. However, a few comments for your consideration that others have touched on here — it really depends what you want to do for a career, and that’s extremely hard to decide right now (because it’s probably going to change anyway.)
You can be successful graduating from any college, and you can even be successful dropping out of high school. The value of college, in my opinion, is having time to develop who you are, learn about a lot of different things, and figure out what it is you might want to do in life. Of course, if you are on a pre-med track or one of those other programs you might not have time to figure this out anyway. But you can do this at any school, free or $60k.
Now, $60,000 for 4 years of education is not that much. I know you’re thinking it’s a lot now, but if you play it out over the long term, it’s not bad for UMass. I have two cousins at Umass now and one good friend who graduated years ago and still loves the school. Everyone I know is extremely happy there. I know nothing about the NY school you speak of so I can’t comment on that…
That said, Amherst, as others have mentioned, is not an Ivy, nor does it have an Ivy price tag. The important thing for you to look at is the quality of professors in the program you will be pursuing, and also what connections are available to land solid internships during your school experience.
If you graduate with $60k in loans and you are single and you are able to get a job, you will not spend your next 30 years paying off dept. It’s possible, even on a $50k a year salary, to pay off $60k in loans over 5-10 years. And you’ll probably get raises over time, making it easier to pay that off quicker. So you shouldn’t make your decision solely on the cost.
However — nothing is wrong with a free ride, esp at a school that you know has very high quality instruction. The truth of the matter is that if it’s free — you can always go there for a year and see how it goes. If you got into Amherst once, you can probably get in there again and transfer. I think others have mentioned doing two years at the free school and two years at Amherst. That’s not a bad idea either. I went 4 years to a private school which only made sense for me because all four years I was in a very particular theatre program that I couldn’t split into two schools — my boyfriend, however, spent two years at a community college and then transfered to UC Berkeley — and the name on his degree is Berkeley, not the college he went to for his first two years. I can ask my boyfriend what he thinks today and have him post — I think Berkeley is a better comparison to Amherst than my alma mater — but he also was able to have his parents pay for those two years.
Well, I’ve reached my final decision. After thinking for a few weeks and talking to Amherst’s financial aid office, I’m going to be going there. With my revised financial aid I’ll need to pay about $5,000 a year, so I’ll take out that much in student loans each year, but overall, I think it’s an excellent price to pay for Amherst College itself. I doubt I’ll have a problem paying off $20,000 after I graduate, and the interest rates for student loans are pretty low, which is a plus. Here’s to the end of the college process!
Congratulations, Katharine! That’s a big step, plus it gets things on to the fun part of planning classes, stuff for your dorm, etc… I’m sure you’ll love it!
Congrats! That really is a NO BRAINER going to Amherst for only $5,000 a month! When you graduate and get that job of your choosing, you will be amazed by what a steal it is.
Good job! Very impressive achievement! Don’t forget to keep in touch, and don’t go too crazy during college! :)
What would you like to bet, that would show that going to Amherst for only $20,000 is the absolute right choice? Throw out a fair bet, and I will bet you any amount of money you want that Katharine will have felt going to Amherst was the right decision.
BTW, it is raining in on a parade b/c she has already made her decision. If you had made your comments before her decision, that’s fine, but to say so now is poor form.
If I had written something for a financial blog and not seen a lot of comments about choosing based on money. I would have been quite confused. No worries about your post; I don’t think that you’re raining on my parade. I was worried about borrowing close to $20,000 each year for Amherst, but if it’s now going to be $20,000 total, I’m not concerned. I can’t imagine that I’d pay it off right away my first year after college, but it’s a much more manageable sum, and I think that I’ll be more motivated to do well in school if I’m actually putting some of my own money into my education. Maybe you’d pick differently if this were your decision, but I think that I’ll be quite happy. From all of my experiences at Amherst, the school seems worth it, and it’ll be nice to not be in NYC for another four years. So check back in 2016, and let’s see if my college experience is everything I thought it would be. I, for one, am exciting for the fall.
Congratulations Katharine. For the record (and not just because it’s after your decision) I think you made the right choice. Amherst at $20,000 for 4 years is an incredible deal, even at $60,000 it is a good deal. I went to a top private university (Colgate) and left with 30,000 in debt (back in 1999). I was lucky enough to have the perspective of attending a “lower” quality school for the first semester to save some money. The reality is that the my final school was head and shoulders ahead in terms of academics. Did the connections help me, not really. Did the job placements help me, not really as I left for Japan right after graduation. The academics and rigor is what helped me and then helped me get into graduate school 5 years later. I went to another prestigious university in my field and left with over $100,000 in debt. I have never had to worry about a job, I have since paid off over half of my loans, and I love my life and my job. It might be sacrilege to say on Yakezie but life is more than personal finances :)
I do wish that someone had given me some of this advice earlier. If you have a plan, and you know why you are going into debt and judge it’s worth it, you are fine. Also, don’t rely on the go to a good school, get a good job, have a white picket fence myth that goes around in our society. The truth is that you need to work hard and love what you do. The added bonus of going to Amherst will help you out and open opportunities you might not have had otherwise. But I also know a lot of people who went to the same university as me, who either hate their jobs, or aren’t living up to their potential because they saw their time at a “good” school as a free pass.
So work hard, make your own success, and be careful of those UMASS guys :)
$5k/year to pay for college isn’t bad at all. Does that include living expenses? That’s like paying for a state school. If it doesn’t include living arrangements, be careful — your $5k/year easily turns into $15k/year, or $60,000 when it’s all said and done.
I would challenge you to do your best to work and pay that tuition as you go, rather than getting loans and paying it later. Not only will your wallet thank you later, but you’ll have so many more options available to you down the road without the debt holding you back — take whatever job you want, stay home with kids, start your own business, etc.
Life is full of surprises, so tackling that college expense will be a HUGE help when the roller coaster of life takes it’s valleys.
Congratulations and good luck!
Congratulations on your decision and the great financial package from Amherst – the decision may have been tough, now comes the (mostly) fun part! Don’t forget to work hard, play hard. Like a previous comment pointed out…it may be sacrilege on Yakezie, but life really is more than personal finances (but it does take a load of stress off if you start thinking about finances sooner than later!).
Like many other things, money will not always be the deciding factor in your decision making process. If I had my heart set on Amherst, I would not go to Macaulay even if they paid me money to go. You’ll encounter similar situations in your future. When you look for jobs, you won’t necessarily take the one that offers me the most money – there are so many other factors to consider. Expected work load (I’m never going back to a 14-16 hour workday including weekends), expected travel time, benefits package, colleagues…the list is endless. When you look for a future lifetime partner, you won’t necessarily go for the one with the biggest bank account (well, not everyone will!). The key is finding balance in everything you do. The best of luck to you, and good luck striking that balance! :)
In Canada we don’t have the same system, but someone above mentioned internships and I can vouch for that: internships, international exchanges and other such experiences will help set you apart and also show that you are a well-rounded person, which will help you out when it comes time for the job search.
This is one difficult decision to make. I agree with Todd, don’t rely on having good grades, landing a good job and stuff. What’s important is that you work hard, and love what you’re doing to excel in it. Successful people aren’t the smart ones, they’re the hardworking people who loved what they do and performed well. :)
[…] Writing Contest winner. She wrote a thoughtful post after winning second place entitled, “Prestigious Expensive University Or A Free Ride Elsewhere?” on April 11, 2011 when she was still in high school. The post discussed her decision between […]